WDH doesn't change the tongue weight. The tongue will put just as much downward force on the ball with or without WDH. It will transfer some weight off the rear axle to the front axle and trailer axle, but none off the ball. Some manufacturers publish a higher allowable tongue weight if using WDH, but the 2016 Honda say no to WDH.
Towing capacity - 2002 Fleetwood Niagra and 2016 Honda Odyssey
- Thread starter bradgav
- Start date
Tiki-Dan
Member
- Jul 20, 2019
- 40
So.. I have a 2001 Coleman Bayside Elite which is pretty much a fraternal twin to your Niagra (120lbs lighter). My TV is a 2002 Expedition 5.4L with an 8700lb towing capacity and brake controller. I would absolutely NOT recommend trying to tow that camper any distance A) without brakes and B) with that minivan. The previous owner said he towed it once with his AWD Honda Pilot (5000lb towing capacity) and never did it again. Even towing this thing with my expedition is squirrely as heck. There is just too much weight behind the axle. Pretty much all of the 12’ models are too big for your Odyssey. The biggest I would feel safe towing with an Odyssey is the Santa Fe, Sea Pine or Sedona.
Any weight shifted to the trailer axle is no longer on the TV, thereby reducing the effective tongue weight when the WDH is engaged.
Honda doesn’t actually say a WDH isn’t allowed, it just says they aren’t recommended because they don’t trust people to set them up correctly. If the hitch is rated for it and it’s set up correctly, as verified on a scale, then it would allowable. If the OP has the Honda OEM hitch, it probably isn’t rated for a WDH based on the language in the owners manual, but some aftermarket hitches are.
As a side note, Honda also doesn’t have a hard limit on tongue weight, so that would be determined by the hitch’s rating and by not exceeding the rear GAWR or any other rating. That’s where a WDH could really help by distributing it to all of the axles rather than just the rear.
Lots of info here. One additional note: The Weight Distribution Hitch that I use with my Chev 1500 and TT probably weighs 80 lbs or more. It is a mother! Yes, it shifts some of the tongue weight to the front, leveling both TV and TT. But it adds quite a bit to the tongue weight (limited at 500#, even though my truck is rated for 9,200# towing capacity). You should be candid with yourself about your appetite for risk, your commitment to this camper (it can be sold and replaced more easily than a new TV), and consequence of overloading your Odyssey. Good Luck! PS. You will note that most veteran campers don't even come close to the towing limit of their vehicle because of the potential for damage to the TV.
sleach
A short run will get you within walking distance.
This response isn't about towing capacity, but I think needs to be said.
Every summer I stop to help flatlanders who head into the high country and wind up with a dead automatic transmission and an end to their vacation dreams. I see lots of similar situations all over the country. Towing is extremely hard on automatic transmissions. The combination of added weight and wind resistance imposes a heavy penalty. The heat buildup causes internal parts to literally weld themselves together.
Be sure to install a good accessory cooler, and completely replace the filter(s) and tranny fluid.
Well, now I feel better about having used our prior Liberty and it's 6 speed manual.
The number you should start with is the Gross Combined Weight Rating, The combined weight of the vehicle, passengers, cargo, trailer and trailer cargo. It should be in your manual. Subtract the curb weight of the vehicle, vehicle cargo and passengers and what's left is the absolute max for the trailer and cargo. Personally I wouldn't run at absolute max or above.
The numbers you've posted are just estimates. You need to go to a scale.
The numbers you've posted are just estimates. You need to go to a scale.
Hopefully the other posts have convinced you that your TV is not adequate for this PUP. To help you further I'll address each of your points:
- No - axle weight cannot be calculated, you must weigh it.
- In your case, axle ratio has no bearing whatsoever with towing capacity and cannot be used in any way in determining weights. A 4.25 axle ratio simply means the engine torque available at the output of the transmission is multiplied by 4.25 to get torque at the wheels.
The only time axle ratio has bearing on towing capacity is if multiple ratios are available on the vehicle. In this case the manufacturer will specify the towing capacities for each available ratio. Axle ratio can never be used to determine the "ratio" of weights on axles and the tongue.
- GVWR is the total weight of the vehicle with all passengers and cargo (which includes tongue weight).
Your GVWR is 6019 and Curb Weight is 4470. Therefore your maximum permissible load in/on the vehicle is 1549 Lbs. You can distribute this any way you wish, but it includes all passengers, cargo, and tongue weight. Your 1549 payload may be limited to less as discussed below.
- Towing capacity is the allowable weight of a trailer and is independent of the GVWR discussion in 3 above. The allowable 1549 Lbs of TV payload does not count against your 3500 lb towing capacity. The 3500 Lb towing capacity is not changed by tongue weight. Towing capacity is the maximum allowed weight of the trailer - period, no more, no less. Your 3500 lb towing capacity may be limited to less as discussed below.
- Regarding axle weight rating - see the below.
GVWR: The total weight of the TV with payload (passengers, cargo, and tongue load). Must not be exceeded.
GAWRF: The weight on the TV front axle. Must not be exceeded.
GAWRR: The weight on the TV rear axle. Must not be exceeded.
TW: Tongue weight. Is included in TV payload. If TV has a specified maximum TW, then it must not be exceeded unless a Weight Distributing Hitch (WDH) is used. Tongue weight is part of allowable TV payload, but excessive TW causes TV squat and results in a dangerous driving condition where the front axle has low traction needed for steering and it significantly lowers the speed at which the front tires will hydroplane.
Towing Capacity: The maximum weight of the trailer, including all cargo in the trailer and its tongue weight. Must not be exceeded. This is an independent rating from TV GVWR and TV payload.
GCWR: (You have not discussed this at all and it appears to be the part you are missing.) The total combined weight of the TV and trailer as loaded. Your total weight at a scale is GCW. GCWR must not be exceeded.
Note all the "Must not be exceeded" above! Each of these must not be exceeded and you must reduce payload and/or tongue weight and/or trailer weight and/or redistribute the loads until all of the above are below the maximums.
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Not to add more fuel to this conversation, but vehicles of even the same generation can have different tow ratings. No other changes, just mfgs pushing people to larger vehicles. There's no argument from anyone that the largest tow vehicle is the best option, but some of the shenanigans mfgs have done is rediculous, even rating the vehicles differently from country to country, while their built at the same plant.
TSQ
Active Member
@bradgav
My post in your other thread still stands.
I see here that you have two kids, so four in the van total?
From the 2002 Fleetwood Coleman popup spec sheet (attached) your trailer has a GVWR of 3,450 lbs, of which a maximum of 3,050 lbs can be carried by the axle and 400 lbs by the tongue.
Also noteworthy is that your trailer has an "empty" weight of 2,670 lbs, of which 2,550 lbs is carried by the axle and 120 lbs by the tongue.
As has been mentioned multiple times be many people already (including myself) your need to drag that thing to some scales ASAP to see where you stand. I've weighed vehicles at commercial scales, scrap yards, and municipal dumps - lots of options available. You can even just drag out a bathroom scale to get an idea of the tongue weight.
I tow a lot with my Odyssey (aprox 1/3rd of my mileage is towing some sort of trailer) and am optimistic that you can find a way to make it work, but determining existing trailer weights is the first step.
What hitch do you have on the van? To use WDH you will want something with a spread out attachment flange to spread the load out on the frame.
Good:
Bad:
The Odyssey is built on the same platform as the Pilot and Ridgeline, both of which are rated to tow 5,000 lbs. Although I did see @Tiki-Dan's comment about a bad experince towing a similar trailer behind a Pilot, I feel you could tow this behind an Odyssey if it were properly set up.
There are some things you can do:
Remove the third row seats. This will give you an extra ~150 lbs of payload to play with (even more on the rear axle because they are located well behind it). Relatively easy to do - just six bolts.
Consider a LFP battery above the trailer axle. This will save you ~100 lbs off the tongue weight.
My post in your other thread still stands.
I see here that you have two kids, so four in the van total?
From the 2002 Fleetwood Coleman popup spec sheet (attached) your trailer has a GVWR of 3,450 lbs, of which a maximum of 3,050 lbs can be carried by the axle and 400 lbs by the tongue.
Also noteworthy is that your trailer has an "empty" weight of 2,670 lbs, of which 2,550 lbs is carried by the axle and 120 lbs by the tongue.
As has been mentioned multiple times be many people already (including myself) your need to drag that thing to some scales ASAP to see where you stand. I've weighed vehicles at commercial scales, scrap yards, and municipal dumps - lots of options available. You can even just drag out a bathroom scale to get an idea of the tongue weight.
I tow a lot with my Odyssey (aprox 1/3rd of my mileage is towing some sort of trailer) and am optimistic that you can find a way to make it work, but determining existing trailer weights is the first step.
Not really. You can approximate the trailer effect if you know tongue weight, distance from trailer ball to rear axle, and tow vehicle wheelbase. You can approximate the occupant/cargo effect if you know their weight and distance between front and rear axles (100 lbs 60% towards the rear axle would put 60 lbs on the rear axle and 40 lbs on the front).
Not useful. Just the final drive ratio.
Three things. 1) You probably can not add all the weight to the rear axle alone as you will likely exceed the rear axle rating. 2) The trailer ball is a good distance back from the rear axle so you have a lever arm - adding 400 lbs at the ball might add 600 lbs to the rear axle (and take 200 lbs off the front - this is why larger trailers are 5th wheel/goosneck). 3) The vehicle frame (and hitch attachment points) may not support a load >400 lbs.
I think my above reply answers most of this question. Also, although Honda does not publish a GCWR you can roughly figure it out: ~4,700 lb curb weight + ~300 lb ocupants + 3500 lb trailer = ~8,500 lb combined weight rating. This is based on drivetrain, braking, and vehicle stability.
See answers above.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes. Depending on tongue weight you may want a WDH. As @Rob Roy pointed out the can be heavy. Consider an Andersen hitch - lightweight combined weight distribution and sway control.
What hitch do you have on the van? To use WDH you will want something with a spread out attachment flange to spread the load out on the frame.
Good:
Bad:
Yes. I use Timbrens as they are maintenance free, but not as good as airbags at load leveling. But with a WDH that will not matter.
You could. But until you drag out your bathroom scale and weigh the trailer tongue disccusing it is pointless.
Note your trailer numbers are maximum permitted, and not acutal weights. As noted above your unloaded trailer tongue weight is only advertised at 120 lbs.
The Odyssey is built on the same platform as the Pilot and Ridgeline, both of which are rated to tow 5,000 lbs. Although I did see @Tiki-Dan's comment about a bad experince towing a similar trailer behind a Pilot, I feel you could tow this behind an Odyssey if it were properly set up.
There are some things you can do:
Remove the third row seats. This will give you an extra ~150 lbs of payload to play with (even more on the rear axle because they are located well behind it). Relatively easy to do - just six bolts.
Consider a LFP battery above the trailer axle. This will save you ~100 lbs off the tongue weight.
Tiki-Dan
Member
- Jul 20, 2019
- 40
The 5000lbs TC of the Ridgeline and Pilot are AWD only models. Completely different transmission, suspension setup than the Odyssey.
TSQ
Active Member
From Honda spec sheets,
2017 AWD Ridgeline has a ~6,000 lb GVWR with a ~4,500 lb curb weight, ~3,250 lb rear axle rating, 12.5"/13" brakes, and the Honda six speed gearbox.
2016 AWD Pilot has a ~5,800 lb GVWR with a ~4,300 lb curb weight, ~3,100 lb rear axle rating, 12.5"/13" brakes, and the Honda six speed gearbox.
2016 Odyssey has a ~6,000 lb GVWR with a ~4,500 lb curb weight, ~3,350 lb rear axle rating, 12.5"/13" brakes, and the Honda six speed gearbox.
The AWD Ridgeline and AWD Pilot have trailer stability assist which is not available on the Odyssey.
While the AWD gearbox would obviously include a transfer case, a quick parts search shows that the same clutch packs and torque converter are used in both the 2WD and AWD versions.
Black taco
Member
- Apr 26, 2022
- 14
I have a Fleetwood Bayside (2600lbs dry/ 3500 GVWR) I've towed it with a 2007 Ridgeline and a 2001 Tacoma (supercharged), then bought a Tundra. Even though it's "only" 2600 lbs, there just wasn't enough left, in case there were any issues. A really big hill or extended pull on an incline would tax the Ridgeline to the limits. I'm not sure if the Odyssey has the CVT transmission, but you have to be extremely careful about heat. A Transmission cooler is a MUST HAVE, as is regular changes of the CVT fluid. I also added Sumo Springs to help with the sag in the rear on the Ridgeline.
Once you start adding water, groceries, coolers, basic camping stuff like leveling platforms and wood, clothes, etc. you will be real close to the GVWR on the camper. In my opinion, I think you need a rig with a larger tow capacity. That is exactly why I chose to buy the Tundra, more than enough to pull the Bayside even when both are fully loaded. I don't ever feel comfortable towing at close to the maximum. Just my opinion.
Once you start adding water, groceries, coolers, basic camping stuff like leveling platforms and wood, clothes, etc. you will be real close to the GVWR on the camper. In my opinion, I think you need a rig with a larger tow capacity. That is exactly why I chose to buy the Tundra, more than enough to pull the Bayside even when both are fully loaded. I don't ever feel comfortable towing at close to the maximum. Just my opinion.
