Trailer instability

Discussion in 'Going to the DARK SIDE' started by A_LPopUp, Jan 5, 2015.

  1. Jayko

    Jayko Jayco 141J aka Big Bertha

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    Yep that's what dealers do!
    Insurance salesmen
    Computer sales people
    Suit sales men
    Appliance sales people
    Your waiter
    Your banker
    Your dentist
    Would never try up selling to a better policy, a stronger computer, a sharper suit, a washer and a dryer, desert/drinks,loans,tooth whitening.

    It's just those dirty dealers

    KEEP IN MIND, YOU MAY BE SLANDERING A MEMBER. [:(]
     
  2. ShanegoDave

    ShanegoDave Member

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    I dont think the intent is to slander the dealers. I am sure there are many that are honest and reputable But the push to move the bigger units Means more profit Just go to the next rv show. How many pups do you usually see there
     
  3. Jayko

    Jayko Jayco 141J aka Big Bertha

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    Go past the next jewelry store, how many cheep rings are in the window?
     
  4. bigdad

    bigdad Active Member

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    To the Op on your check the measurements at the front and Rear of TV and at the hitch you want the both TT and Tv to be level also check measurements at hitch on the tv. also weight the tong weight on the TT and check max tong weight on your Tv.
     
  5. 96Rockwood

    96Rockwood Member

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    ^^ the OP can check this till he/she is blue in the face. Even if these are good, there is not enough wheel base on the TV for that length of trailer.
     
  6. mcbrew

    mcbrew Member

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    I would just like to add one thing:

    A few people have recommended going by GVWR rather than dry weight. I understand why they are recommending this, but let's break it down...

    Dry weight is a published number from the manufacturer. About the only thing you can assume is that your trailer weighs more than this, because you probably have options, accessories, liquids, food, and gear that are adding weight.

    GVWR is the maximum weight rating of the trailer... this is usually based on the weight rating of the axle(s). This number doesn't have anything to do with the actual weight of the trailer as you tow it down the road. The only thing you can assume is that your trailer probably weighs less than this. It might weight more than this. It probably doesn't weight exactly this.

    The only number that really counts is the actual weight. You need to take your trailer to a truck scale (search for a CAT scale in your area) and get a weight on it. It will cost you about $10.

    To the folks who say GVWR is a safe bet, let me use this analogy: We could assume that I weigh 195 pounds because it is the maximum healthy weight for a man of my height. This is my GVWR, so to speak. However, I actually weight more than that. Other people my height could weigh 80 pounds less than me. My doctor (and theirs) would never just assume that we both weigh 195 pounds just because that is the "maximum" weight rating.
     
  7. bigdad

    bigdad Active Member

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    I look up the OP camper its a 2015 Gulf stream Ulitra Lite 24RBH so the Kia Borrago can pull it he need set up the WDH so all the weight well be on all four axles.

    25ft
    Dry weight-3593
    Hitch weight-560
    Weight caring cap-2527
     
  8. Snow

    Snow Well-Known Member

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    True, but not many dealers will let you load up a trailer as if you were going camping and go off to the scales.. So using the GVWR of the trailer is a better guide to use when looking to purchase... I can assure you most people are going to carry between 500 and 1000 lbs over what the fictitious dry weight is listed at... Don't forget the dry weight doesn't include a battery, propane tank(s), awning, ac unit and incases of pups and small trailers a fridge and many times an over is an option too ...

    How does this even relate ??? each person is different... these trailers are all built to the exact mold so to speak, so the dry weight of line unit number 1 will be the same as unit number 207 ... Only thing that will change will be the GVWR if the manufacture changes axle ratings or the shipped weight (think Keystone is the only manufacture who lists this on each unit as it leaves the factory) which will include all the options..
     
  9. Snow

    Snow Well-Known Member

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    Could be because he doesn't like being told his set up won't work .....

    Wheel base is only 9ft 6 inches... with a 5ft track ... Also without knowing the details, is the vehicle adequately equipped?

    Still a lot of trailer to be pulled ..
     
  10. Rusty

    Rusty Don't worry, everything has a way of working out.

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    ^^^^ This plus look at your yellow sticker inside the drivers side door jamb. The sticker will state the actual payload rating of your TV. Once you know all the actual numbers and have the WD hitch adjusted the best it can be you will know for certain if you are within limits. Remember that anything you add to the TV (hitch wieght, people, cooler) will be cnsidered part of the "payload as well and needs to be deducted from what the sticker states is available. Hope you get it to work out for you.
     
  11. Old_Geezer

    Old_Geezer Well-Known Member

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    These threads always evolve into a mess which is the reason I was apprehensive to make a comment in the first place. This will be the last time. No wonder the OP hasn't returned.

    Bottom line is a Kia Borrego is not the ideal TV for the trailer listed if you have even the slightest concern about safety. Forget dry weight, GVWR, WDH, airbags, shocks, scales.
    The question should be can it tow it safely and under control at all times, and can it stop it and keep it under control during an emergency stop. The answer to all of those is a big MAYBE or HOPEFULLY. When the TV weighs equal to or less than the weight being towed that is never good. It's common sense. The short and narrow wheelbase adds to the problem.

    Go watch the video Stormtrooper posted in a sticky over in the hybrid thread. That is what happens to TV's that are too light for the job.
     
  12. Snow

    Snow Well-Known Member

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    Actually this has been a pretty tame thread about this so far... OP probably hasn't posted any follow up due to being told stuff he didn't want to hear ...

    If it's the very first post in that thread, that accident was caused by extreme crosswinds.. That trailer was a small single axle unit, probably had a GVWR of equal to or less then 3500lbs ...
     
  13. mcbrew

    mcbrew Member

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    Not always. The dry weight rating of my trailer includes the furnace, fridge, awning, etc. This is because those were standard features. The dry weight did not favor in the AC (added by the dealer), liquids, or gear. On the road, my camper is about 250-300 pounds heavier than the dry weight.

    YES, some people are way over the dry weight. I understand that. But most people are also way under the GVWR, too. And again, I totally understand why people recommend using GVWR, because it usually allows for a large margin of error. However, this is not always a true representation of the trailer as it goes down the road.

    For instance (and I will not use an analogy this time), my cargo trailer is about 900 pounds empty. The GVWR IS 3,500 pounds. My car has a tow rating of 2,700 pounds. So, it weighs a third of the tie rating, but by your standards, it is too heavy for my car to tow.

    Yes, it would be possible to load it to the point that it is too heavy for my car, but if you are not using a scale, it would be just as easy to overload a 2,000 lb GVWR trailer beyond the tow rating of my car. It's not like a bell goes off when you've reached the GVWR.
     
  14. Snow

    Snow Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely correct ... Which is why it is important to know your numbers and set a limit to what weight you want to tow.. I know more then one person who is towing at 90% and probably even closer to 100% when they have everything loaded up (they know what they are because they do use the scales) but their trucks can handle that ...

    This is also why I stated that most are carrying 500-1000lbs of stuff above what the dry weight is ... Even if the OP is carrying a 1000lbs, he would still be nearly 400lbs below the 5000lb tow rating and 900lbs below the 7000lb rating .. Depending on the vehicle being adequately equipped..

    All the weights aside.. the OP just doesn't have the right choice of TV .. short wheelbase is not the best platform to use trying to pull something that is more then 2 times the TV wheelbase..
     
  15. Ryanincc

    Ryanincc Truth is poetry. Most Americans do not like poetry

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    None of those examples have upselling a dangerous product to the consumer and those around them.
     
  16. Ryanincc

    Ryanincc Truth is poetry. Most Americans do not like poetry

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    In most instances, dealers and owners will not let you put all your stuff in the RV and take it to a scale before you pay for it. So "actual weight" is not really a possibility. GVWR allows for an important safety margin as most of the time you are within 10-15% of GVWR when loaded. That 15% left is a safety margin. Its an easy way to know if it's possible to tow what you want to buy. Then you can check tongue weight and the others to make sure.
     
  17. davido

    davido Active Member

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    I use GVWR because I know that it is my responsibility (or the owner's responsibility) to not overload the trailer. And assuming the owner abides by that responsibility, the trailer will weigh the GVWR or less. So a vehicle that can safely tow the weight indicated to be the trailer's GVWR will safely tow that trailer so long as the owner is responsible enough to not overload the trailer.

    I'm ok with operating under the assumption that occasionally the owner will load the trailer to maximum GVWR capacity. When that happens, it's nice to know that his vehicle is up to the task. It's reasonable to assume that the owner will load the trailer up with stuff, and that it will come close to its GVWR.

    It would be irresponsible for someone to suggest that buying a trailer with a GVWR that exceeds the vehicle's tow capacity is a reasonable thing to do as long as the owner doesn't carry more than 150 pounds of total cargo (to stay within his vehicle's capacity), because that's an unreasonable expectation.
     
  18. Old_Geezer

    Old_Geezer Well-Known Member

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    We can go back and forth all day long. The point is you need to start somewhere and when selecting a TV the weight you want to use is the trailers GVWR. That's your worst case scenario. Like Snow says, on most. not all, full height trailers it is almost impossible to load it beyond GVWR. I can't do it with ours. I would have to put concrete blocks or my firewood in the trailer. The OP has higher cargo capacity than mine.

    As an example I have a GVWR of 6000, a dry of 4160 and a cargo capacity of 1840 lbs. 2 batteries at 50lbs each from that, 2 tanks of gas at 38 lbs each, 50 gallons of water at 417 lbs and I still have over 1200 lbs left. I can not load 1200lbs of food, clothes,pots, pans, toilet paper and other gear unless I tried. I sure as hell wouldn't be using half of the stuff. [:D]

    Granted pop ups and some trailers with low cargo capacities are much more of a PITA to get correct or are easier to overload. One thing I am not going to do is get to the point where I am weighing this and that because then I am so close to the capacities its not a good idea from a safety standpoint. If your cargo capacity is anything over 1500 lbs you'll be hard pressed to overload even hauling fresh water. 99% of TT's have probably never seen a scale. And if you want to get technical weighing trailers only works if you load the exact same gear, in the exact same locations, every time you tow. Who does that? I like to be over and above the requirement by a substantial amount.


    Once you start getting close on those numbers is when the issues come up like the OP is having. Sure the vehicle manufacturer says the Kia is capable, the trailer manufacturer lists this weight and that weight, the dealer may say its good to go.

    In the real world all of that stuff means nothing if it doesn't end up working. Just because you're within all the numbers does not always mean that's the smart move. I see people coming into campgrounds with 1/2 ton pickups pulling 36' 5ers or huge toy haulers that I know are overloaded from a practical standpoint. Most likely they are just within all the weight ratings but how smart is that to do? They probably tow like crap and the owners don't even know it. it happens all the time. If they ever need to make an emergency stop or maneuver, that is when they will figure it all out. The only people that get this technical about it arein these forums. Most people say hey its Memorial day weekend, lets load about 14 tons of food and beer in the camper and go camping and off they go swerving and bouncing down the road, then scratch their head when the tire blows out. [LOL]

    On a side note I hit bambi one morning pulling an Aerolite 185E hybrid behind a Chevy 2500 reg cab 8' bed. I was on the way to trade the trailer in at Beckleys RV. That trailer was at its dry weight of 3560. (Aerolite actually weighs them and certifies the unloaded weight). I believe if I would of been towing it with a Kia I would not have traded that camper in that day, I would have totaled it.

    Unfortunately the dealers and salesman are out there that would be more than happy to sell you a trailer beyond your tow vehicles capacity Jayko. Its not illegal and once you sign on the line its 100% your problem if it wasn't to begin with. It happens more than you think. I could search back and find numerous examples here on PUP of it happening.

    I have seen it often that people end up in the OP's situation and come here or another RV forum looking for advice. Then they do not get the answer they were looking for. I hope he is not scared away.
     
  19. A_LPopUp

    A_LPopUp Member

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    Thanks for the input everybody. Sorry i haven't been able to reply lately, I've been busy. (I'm not trying to be rude- I promise!) I think i might have to agree that maybe my Borrego isn't enough vehicle for the trailer. It's not even the v8 model. I'll look into other options for sure. We have adjusted the hitch so that the car and trailer are both completely level, too. Sigh...
     
  20. silverfz

    silverfz Active Member

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    As long you keep your trips less than 100 miles and drive carefully you will be okay.
    I towed with a explorer with 2000 lbs rating for 2000 miles . my pop itself weighed 3000 lbs and the car was loaded.

    take it easy .
     

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