WDH on Pop Up and Dealer Can't figure it out

Discussion in 'Camper Pre-Purchase Questions' started by Cecil, Sep 18, 2009.

  1. Cecil

    Cecil New Member

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    I found a put a deposit on a pre-owned 2008 Palomino 6128 today and due to my TV being a 2005 honda odyssey I said I needed a WDH. They have not quite figured out how to utiilze a wdh due to how the camper is set up. I am attaching pics of the tongue and thought from all the posts I read that putting a WDH on was not a problem (at least no one said they had to do serious mods to accomodate it). I sent Palomino and email last night to ask if I could use a WDH and then called this morning since I had a small window to make an offer. They said over the phone it would accept a WDH. I get home tonight and have an email saying they do not recommend a WDH on the Mustang. [:(!]

    What do do? Here are photos of the tounge. It has the electric lift, LP and Battery. The solution the dealer came up with an they are confirming is to attach part number Reese 50385 to each side of the tounge to allow the chains and bar to attach(see attached link below the photos).

    Any suggestions. Does anyone use a WDH on a Palomino Mustang? This is the exact floor plan and features we want and i hope this does not cause me to cancel the purchase (which I can since it is a refundable deposit). Thanks everyone

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    http://www.iqfifthwheelhitches.com/products/Weight_Distribution___Bolt_On_Chain_Hanger,58305
     
  2. Retired Alex

    Retired Alex New Member

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    The reason the company doesn't recommend a WDH is probably because the frame isn't strong enough to support one. Your pictures show an open "C" channel frame, not the strongest in the world. If you really need a WDH then a box frame is better. I'm not saying it won't work but be aware not to put too much strain on it.
     
  3. Cecil

    Cecil New Member

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    My owners manual for my Odyssey says I need a WDH if I exceed 1875 lbs. This camper dry is 2221. Can I override what the TV manual says for the sake of the popup? The dealer said they never put on WDH's for pop -ups. I figured the suspension was too soft and being front wheel drive that the Odyssey should have one. Anyway to strengthen the frame. Weld a bar on the tounge? My family was so excited and now we are deflated.
     
  4. pianewman

    pianewman Ft. Worth, TX

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    You don't want to compromise the tongue of the popup, period. If Palomino says no, then that's your answer.

    Yes, your Odyssey's rear suspension is very soft, and benefits from the WDH, as well as airlifts, which are air bladders that go inside the rear springs to assist.

    My advice, if you want it, is that dry weight of 2221 is 300 lbs short of the behind-the-bumper capacity of the Odyssey. Does that 2221 include fridge, water heater, awning, propane, battery? I'll bet the gross weight of your trailer is over 3000 lbs, which is just too much for the Odyssey.

    Sorry to disappoint, as I know the enthusiasm factor is huge. However, you're into the best time of year to purchase a pup, and should just keep looking around for a lighter one. The good buys are out there, and you'll find the right one!!

    Just my [2C]
     
  5. pianewman

    pianewman Ft. Worth, TX

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    Another comment, and a very serious one. Just checked the specs on the 2009 6128. As I suspected, the GVWR (dry weight [which usually does NOT include fridge, water heater, propane, battery, awning!!] + cargo weight) is OVER 3500 lbs.

    Your selling dealer has no business selling you a trailer that is too heavy for your TV. In addition, they should know about the WDH issues, and that Palomino says NOT to install one. I know, I know, it happens all the time, but it shouldn't.

    Shame on them!!
     
  6. Cecil

    Cecil New Member

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    The Palomino Mustang 6128 comes standard with everything you mention except the AC, electric lift, LP and battery. Therefore my weight should be around 2450-2500 not 3000. I would not have considered it otherwise.
     
  7. grcooperjr

    grcooperjr Lunatic

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    Boy...

    Strange specs on Palomino's web site. Dry weights only. No GVWR listed. But if you take the cargo weight and the dry weight and add em together, that should give ya the GVWR.

    Doing that I have to agree with Pianewman. Of course if you don't want to carry any cargo in the trailer or the van I guess it would be OK.

    On the WDH, I've seen 2 folks try to make work on C rail tongue's. One had to change out the tongue after it bent. They replaced it with dimensional rectangular box tubing. The other took it off because it broke the frame. They made the repair without beefing it up so they decided not to re-install it.
     
  8. Cecil

    Cecil New Member

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    Thanks for the replies:

    Here are the specs of the Palomino 6128:

    Dry weight: 2232
    Cargo Capacity (dry): 1280
    Axle Weight (dry): 2040
    Hitch Wieght (dry): 192

    Odyssey:

    GCVWR: 8410
    Towing: 3500
    Curb weight: 4600


    From this I should be able to tow 8410-4600= 3810 less passengers, cargo, trailer etc. Trailer weighs 2500 lets say with the AC, electric lift, LP and battery. That leave 1310 for cargo and passengers. My family weighs in at 425. That leaves 885 in cargo. We don't plan to camp for a week at a time. If we did maybe we bring another vehicle but for the most part it will be 2-3 day trips and I won't be bringing water in the tank and if I pack 885 lbs I need to do a better job of packing. Am I looking at this right.

    I agree that a C channel might not be a good frame for a WDH. With that said, can a particular shop strenthen up the frame and if so, how. thanks
     
  9. grcooperjr

    grcooperjr Lunatic

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    Hi Cecil

    The Dry weights don't do ya any good....

    I'll give an example:

    My trailer is 3 feet longer than yours. It has a dry weight of around 3030 lbs and a wet weight of 4400. This is the published weights. Palomino doesn't publish a Wet or GVWR weight. So to get that from their specs you add the cargo to the dry. That will be very close.

    Now from my experience on my current rig and 2 other past rigs, I have yet to get my required cargo (water, food, misc gear, Etc) below 1000 lbs. My current rig has a big deck so I got even more space for stuff. So with that said, you may be able to camp with only 200 to 300 lbs of cargo, but I sure can't nor do I know many families that can. Just IMHO
     
  10. Unstable_Tripod

    Unstable_Tripod Well, there's your problem!

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    I think that you are pushing the weight limits too closely. I also think it is not wise to go against the manufacturer's recommendation on the WDH. IMO it would be better/safer to get a different TV or a lighter PUP.
     
  11. Cecil

    Cecil New Member

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    Just found a link on another forum that a PUP owner was towing a Palomino Yearling 2142 with a Hyundai Entourage minivan. They PUP weighs in at over 2400# dry (200 more than the 6142) and with full water, gear, passengers etc was not over my GCVWR and I won't be loading water as we will do hook up sites. The important thing is he wanted to put on a WDH and was told no by forum members due to C channel. He found that Dexter Chasis was the mfr of the frames for the Palomino and got a letter and email from the VP of Engineeing that their C channel frames will handle a WDH and would not invalidate the warranty if you install one. Just need to watch numbers and not weld it on. I have emailed Dexter Chasis as well and hopefully will get the same reply :)
     
  12. pianewman

    pianewman Ft. Worth, TX

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    OPINION HERE:

    Sounds like a lot of trouble to go to on a new pup. I would be concerned about re-sale, because any modification you make alters the pup in a manner that the manufacturer won't touch (warranty, etc.) , which might be a big concern to the next owner...and there will be a next owner.

    You're still just too heavy. Been there, done that, 25k miles on 01 and 07 Odysseys, with airlifts AND WDH. Yes, it can be done. No, I won't do it again. I was always at 100% capacity, which just isn't good for the TV, the passengers in the TV, and the people around me.

    There are so many deals to be made out there.

    Good luck.
     
  13. Snow

    Snow Well-Known Member

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    Two things... 1st: Yerlings are smaller pups them the Mustangs .. unless things have changed in the last year since I was at an RV show.

    2nd: I believe in one of your other posts I specifically stated that my Palomino manual says not to use a WDH and sugested that what ever pup you decided to buy to make sure that you could use one ... I know I left out the part of read the manual too check.


    Now the stealership who sold you the pup should be ashamed of itself, for selling you more pup then you can not only safely tow but also legally tow. I would go back to that dealer and tell them that the deal is off and you want you depost down payment back. If they refuse tell them you'll take them to court and they can explain to a judge why they willingly sold you a pup that was grossly over weight for what your tv can safetly tow.
     
  14. sk91709

    sk91709 Chino Hills, CA

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    Cecil - I admire your, 'don't take "no" for an answer' attitude, but I agree with the others here.

    You are buying new to get a warranty. A warranty is like an insurance policy, or a double-edged sword. It is used more often to deny claims than to honor them.

    If you think that the manufacturer will not try to deny claims for service after you've gone against its explicit instructions not to use a WDH, you are very charitable toward corporations. Or crazy. [;)]

    Now, you could argue with them and claim that whatever repair you're trying to get covered has nothing whatsoever to do with a WDH or the frame, but all they need is that little loophole, and you'll probably have to resort to small-claims court to get their attention. Why put yourself in that position?

    Minivan towers are in a minority position when it comes to buying campers. Most dealers and people who tow light campers with full-size trucks or their descendants (full size SUVs) have not had to consider WDH, be so careful about weight ratings, and deal with getting extra wiring run for 7 pin sockets and brake controllers, etc.

    IMO, if the camper you want is not designed to accept a WDH, then it's disqualified. No matter how much you like the floorplan and features. Going against the manufacturer's instructions is just asking for trouble, especially on a new unit.

    As far as weight goes, we just don't want you to burn up your tranny, break a suspension part, or get in an accident because you're pulling beyond your capacity. I can tell you're reading your owner's manual - so you're one step ahead of a lot of people. But, you'll always be able to find posts on the 'net that support what you want to do, even if it's against the advice of the manufacturer.

    We have no other vested interest in this, but for the interest of helping out someone who's asking for help. Our advice comes from an experienced and principled place.

    Good luck!
     
  15. redjacket

    redjacket In memory of Nick Dilal, Sr. 1931-2005

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    Unfortunately, you need either a different TV or a lighter pup. Sorry.
     
  16. pianewman

    pianewman Ft. Worth, TX

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    sk91709, +1. You've summed it up nicely.

    Cecil, we're all just trying to help. It must feel like we're beating up on you, but that's not our intention at all. We're trying to help you avoid a big mistake.

    Odysseys, Siennas, etc. are great vans. I've driven 120k miles of Odyssey, and I LOVED the van. It just wasn't structurally strong enough (towing) for a large enough safety margin for me. I don't know of any unibody vehicle that is. The fact that ALL OF THEM state "Towing Capacity: 3500 lbs" is just a bold-faced lie. The true, behind the bumper capacity, is less than 2600 lbs, period. That 900 lbs. left over for the TV gets used up very rapidly...we've all done it and proven it over and over (have you considered adding a bike rack w/ bikes? add another 150-200lbs.). And, no one should be towing at 100% of their tow vehicle capacity, period.

    Our solution? We traded our 07 Odyssey EXL with 22k miles, straight up, for an 05 Toyota Tundra Crewcab (real back seat, ARE bed cap) with 31k miles. MPG dropped a good bit (17-18mpg vs. 13-15mpg), but the level of comfort (my blood pressure!!) while towing increased dramatically. I no longer puckered over every RR crossing or washboard road. We more than doubled our tow capacity, and the truck is...well...a truck, with many different uses than the van. Is it as comfortable as the van for everyday use? No, but I think we made an excellent choice with the trade.

    Best of luck. Keep us posted.
     
  17. Cecil

    Cecil New Member

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    I should state that this is a pre-owned 2008 Palomino so no warranty is transfereed. I have an email into Dexter Chasis as well as Palomino about their frame accepting a WDH. I realize the weight is at the limits but we do not plan to tow every weekend. I may consider just adding a dang 5th car to my driveway and picking up an SUV that can tow 5k lbs. Something under $5k to just use sparingly but to have 5 cars, a trailer, a PUP at my house is ridiculous and I really don't want to do that. [:(O]
     
  18. Cecil

    Cecil New Member

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  19. snipehunter

    snipehunter New Member

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    From experience, I would NOT tow anything with an Odyessy, they are great vans, but their transmissions just aren't geared or strong enough to tow...even on occasional weekends. In addition, you are looking at towing at or over the capacity.

    We have an Odyssey and believed what the owner's manual stated...3,500 lbs, blah, blah, blah. We wanted to tow our PUP with and our pup weighed 2,800 loaded, well below the 3,500 limit. To be safe, I wanted to add a tranny cooler to the Odyssey.

    We took the van to our mechanic, he only works on Hondas and is a Honda certified master technician, and is not affliated with the dealership. He refused to install it and said, "I don't care what Honda says, I would not tow anything with the Odyssey." How many times do you see a mechanic refuse business!!! We ended up getting a stronger vehicle to tow with.

    I like others on this forum have tried to tell you that the pup you are considering is too much for your TV.

    Bottom Line: If you are sold on this PUP, you need a different tow vehicle, if you go with a lighter pup, you still need a different TV.

    You asked for advice and have received an overwhelming response that the TV and pup in consideration is not a good combination. I don't know what else to say or add. This combination is a BAD idea...
     
  20. Cecil

    Cecil New Member

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    See my post above yours. Would this make an acceptable tow vehicle? I could swing buying this. The hitch and coolers for my Ody and the labor for install is going to run my $940. I could spend $1k more for this Blazer assuming it checked out. Anyone tow with a 98-2000 Vintage Blazer.
     

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